Reclaiming Your Creative Voice A Journey of Authenticity and Transformation with Deborah Zelasny

In this episode of Shobukai Shift, Mary engages in a heartfelt conversation with Deborah Zelazny, a writer and content creator. They explore their long-standing friendship, the challenges of teenage years, the impact of influential teachers, and the journey of self-discovery through writing and blogging. Deborah shares her experiences of navigating career changes, the importance of authenticity in content creation, and offers advice for aspiring writers. The discussion culminates in reflections on personal growth, the significance of kindness, and the power of following one's dreams. Warning: this episode may result in your dusting off that unfinished novel!

Takeaways:

💡Embrace continuous personal evolution and be willing to reinvent yourself

💡Support and encouragement are crucial in pursuing creative dreams

💡Authenticity matters more than external metrics of success

💡Creative pursuits often emerge from periods of personal challenge or grief

💡It's never too late to pursue your passions 

💡Friendship can shape our identities and experiences.

💡Influential teachers can have a lasting impact on our lives.

💡Career choices often require sacrifices and adjustments.

💡Evolving as a content creator is essential for growth.

💡Writing is a journey that requires perseverance and self-belief.

Compelling Quotes:

🎤"To make a leap and do something outside the box is challenging"

🎤"What's the point of that gift that was given to you if you don't do anything with it?"

🎤"Stick to the authenticity... that's going to bring you the success and joy that you're really looking for"

Show Links:

🌸Beyond Jersey Momma 🌸

🐦‍⬛Jersey Momma Media🐦‍⬛

🔥Key of the Darkhouse book 🔥

💜Unlovable (The Smiths) 💜

Keywords:

✅creative writing ✅personal transformation ✅author journey ✅content creation ✅creative inspiration ✅career evolution ✅authentic storytelling ✅midlife creativity ✅writing process ✅personal growth

#CreativeJourney #AuthorLife #PersonalGrowth #CreativeInspiration #MidlifeCreativity #Authenticity #WritingCommunity #CareerEvolution #StorytellingJourney #CreativeDreams

Disclaimer:

***The information, opinions, and recommendations presented in this Podcast are for general information only and any reliance on the information provided in this Podcast is done at your own risk. This Podcast should not be considered professional advice.***

Credits: Written, produced and hosted by: Mary Schaub. Theme song written by: Mary Schaub. Mixing Engineer: Dylan Yauch

Contact: Tell us how your transformation is going. Email us at Shobukai_Shift@mschaubadvisory.com or leave us a voicemail at ‪(631) 371-3240‬ and we may play it on a future episode.

Website: M. Schaub Advisory (MSA)

** Shobukai Shift is a MSA Production **

Chapters

• 0:00 Growing up in the 80s
• 10:45 The Impact of Inspirational Teachers
• 13:12 Navigating Career Choices and Life Changes
• 19:08 Embracing Change Through Personal Loss
• 30:03 The Genesis of 'Key of the Dark House'
• 34:38 The Vulnerability of Sharing Your Work
• 42:49 Redefining Success and Happiness
• 45:59 The Protagonist Questionnaire

Transcript

Mary 

Welcome to Shobakai Shift where we talk about transformations that matter.

Today is super special because I'm sitting down to talk to writer, content creator, and internet influencer, Deborah Zelazny. She's the founder and CEO of Jersey Momma Media and is well known for her popular Beyond Jersey Momma brand. Now, she's also the author of a new young adult novel titled Key of the Dark House, available now everywhere where you buy books. above and beyond all of this, Debbie is a friend I've known since junior high school.

Welcome, Deb. Am I allowed to now call you Deb or Debbie now that you're a fancy writer?

Debbie (00:47)

You can call me whatever you want. My name is Debra, but you can call me Deb. You can call me Debbie. I'll answer it. I'll answer anything at this point.

Mary (00:55)

I'm teasing you. I go by a few names myself and some of them I can even say on the air. So I was thinking about how long we've known each other and it's 38 years.

Debbie (01:07)

It's

crazy, right? It's a road. That is a long road.

Mary (01:11)

It is a lot. We became friends, think seventh or eighth grade. Yeah, it was junior high school. Yeah. And I don't remember how because how do 13 year olds make friends? Like it's so awkward. And don't remember either. Junior high is weird. So we grew up in a town called Montville in Northern New Jersey, not Montvale, but Montville, classy one. Just kidding. I don't know anyone from Montvale But there's like five elementary schools and they all converge.

Debbie (01:17)

What?

Mary (01:37)

into one junior high school, which back then was seventh and eighth grade. Now I think it's like sixth through eighth grade. And it's so awkward meeting kids, especially when you're in your little baby school and it's like, know everybody and then all of a sudden there's four times as many people. And how do you, I don't even remember how you would like approach someone you don't know when you're 13 years old.

Debbie (01:43)

Yeah.

Yeah, I don't either. I don't remember how we met. don't remember. Yeah, but I remember the school. I remember like us being friends. I remember that like it was yesterday, which is very odd. You know, you can't remember why you walk into a room sometimes now at this age, but I can tell you like, you know, what I was wearing sometimes like math class or like how I did my hair. It's weird. I don't know. It's different part of your brain, I suppose.

Mary (02:01)

I don't either.

Benetton, I've had a lot of Benetton clothes and then the champion sweatshirts I had in like five colors and then back then the style was you'd have those puffy socks but sometimes you would like stack your puffy stock so if you're wearing like a red shirt you'd have like a red and black anyway. yeah. Fashionable. We can go on. One thing I do remember is I was the naughty one even from the very beginning. things don't change. I'm pretty sure I brought vodka to an eighth grade party at one point. Sorry Jackie Rotter.

Debbie (02:34)

We can go on.

Mary (02:46)

Sorry, that was your party. but I was pretty, pretty reliable in that one. You don't remember? Were you at that party?

Debbie (02:52)

don't think so. Yeah, I was good. I was very good. doing the air quotes, but I was like I didn't drink. I didn't smoke. And that was not my thing. Like, I don't know.

Mary (03:03)

But what's weird is that you hung out with either kind of troubled kids or like the alternative crowd, you somehow managed to be both cool and hang out with rebellious and alternative kids, but we're also the good kid. do you remember even like how to do that? it's so weird how you figured that out.

Debbie (03:20)

You know, it's funny. I don't not like I'm patting myself on the back or anything But I really felt like I always tried to be myself and so I was just like a kind person I felt like I could be friends with you. I could be friends with you. I could be friends with you I didn't really like try very hard to fit in anywhere and I feel like I don't know. I just kind of like clicked with people I would always kind of look at everybody as a friend I still do that sometimes which can be a bad thing because not everybody's your friend really but I felt

connection with a lot of people. So I don't know how I did it really. I just was myself.

Mary (03:53)

some wisdom for a 13 year old and probably younger to have considering many of us, later in life are still figuring that out hey, you know what, you just be yourself and see what happens and out whoever doesn't like it. a lot of people like it.

Debbie (04:06)

making that sound so easy, but it's not. Like not to say that I was this like perfect high school student. I had a lot of insecurities. I was very self-conscious of how I looked. I had bad skin. I had terrible cystic acne. So I was not a person who loved herself physically, how she looked, but I never really like conveyed that to other people. I think I just treated others like I would want to be treated. I was always very aware of the kid that was new.

or that didn't fit in or like that somebody was picking on. I was the one that would go and say, you know, come over here or who are you? And still to this day. If I go to event or something, I'll go for the person who's standing by themselves, say, hey, can I stay by you? Or hey, I noticed you're alone too, or still do it.

Mary (04:47)

Quality of character there, because I think everyone has been that person at some point and 13 and 14. mean, my God, could you find a harder time to be a young girl? Like when you're 13 and 14 and all that stuff's happened.

Debbie (05:00)

It's

so hard. Teenage years, especially for girls, it's really difficult.

Mary (05:05)

I think our friendship, got closer in high school. And I remember you got your driver's license a year earlier than everyone else because you had house in Florida where you can drive at 15. Yep. Florida, where you can drive at 15 and also old tigers and alligators I was a year behind everyone because I went into school a bit early. So that made me the last in our entire class to get their driver's license.

because I'm doing my old lady curmudgeonly back in the day. So generation alert back in the day, getting your license was a really big deal. True. And kids now that they don't they don't really care or something.

Debbie (05:40)

It's very true. I don't get it, but that is true.

Mary (05:43)

I can bet you guys have no idea how important it was. It's so important with a countdown to get it. And you had that cute little blue car.

Debbie (05:50)

Yes, at a Toyota Celica GT 1988.

Mary (05:52)

It

was so cute. was a perfect teenage car.

So we hung out a lot. Usually I remember driving around aimlessly

Debbie (06:00)

I remember the horses. I loved going to the barn to see the horses and that was very special.

Mary (06:04)

playing Super Mario Brothers in your house, which I should restate that. It's me watching you play Super Mario Brothers because I was so bad and I'm still bad to this day. am terribly. I would sit there. We were sat on the rug right in front of the TV. My turn was over in like 22 seconds and I was just watching.

Debbie (06:16)

Come over and watch me play this.

You'd be stuck watching me for like half an hour.

Mary (06:28)

And I liked

it. And then as you alluded to, there were some shenanigans with some cute boys, which of course brought along some crushes and heartbreaks, normal teenager stuff. Back in our day, before AI bots, we would try to have relationships with other humans.

Debbie (06:43)

like boy very boy crazy, which I didn't even realize till looking back at some of my old journals Like rereading that how boy crazy I was like that was like on the top of my brain all the time Like who's this boy? Who's that boy? Do I like him? Do I like him? That was like

Mary (06:56)

was always something, there was always one. There was always a contender until it was an arc where it either worked or it didn't and then there was the next one and it was like, what was gonna happen with this?

Debbie (07:03)

And I was a pursuer, always a pursuer. Because I didn't have much confidence in myself, I think I just assumed that no boy would ever want to go out with me or ask me out or anything. So I would always be chasing down somebody. Like, oh, I got to go ask him first. Or I got to befriend him first. So there was a lot of that. Only recognizing that in retrospect. I didn't realize that then. But looking at those journals, which was an eye opener, it's like, wow. So if for anyone listening, if you ever kept journals, go back and read them.

Mary (07:31)

you and I both have kept journals since back in the day. yeah. And this is a great segue for, does this look familiar? So people can't see this because we're doing audio. At some point this will be out in video, but Deb gave me a journal and everyone should know that in addition to being a brilliant writer, Debbie is actually a really good artist. A really very creative artist.

Debbie (07:40)

my gosh.

my god

Mary (07:54)

Hand

writing is like calligraphy. And I'm just going to read a couple of quotes just again as a generation alert, just so you guys know exactly who you're talking to.

Debbie (08:03)

fill up on the cover that it says mary's little journal? L-I-L with a little h- little

Mary (08:06)

It's Mary's little journal. And

it was kind of like the 80s hip hop, like Bronx bubble letters, graffiti letters. just, I'm going to say a couple of quotes and you just imagine if you're going to find your teenage kid with quotes of a journal like that. There's a place somewhere, sometimes you'll find me there. Being alone is the best way to be. And then of course there's

no shortage of Morrissey and Smith's quotes on the back. I wear black on the outside because black is how I feel on the inside.

And then this one holds up and I may put this in the podcast as like our description. To be free, we have only to let go. That's pretty profound for 15, 16 years old.

Debbie (08:49)

I am honored that you say that all these years and I totally that was see and again, that's one of those things about journaling. If you didn't save that or you don't write those things down, it's like you forget them. The journaling keeps people alive and things alive that like it keeps it like it was yesterday for you. If I didn't have some of those things like I'd forget totally. I forget that I made that for you. If you didn't have it to show in front of me, it's like out of your brain forever.

Mary (09:12)

it's such a great tool for reflection and what changes and what's the same as we try to figure out what is, what is us and maybe even what are parts of us that are still.

Debbie (09:14)

Definitely.

Mary (09:22)

in that place. Right. You're talking about feeling empathy toward people who were on the fringe or left out. And you're saying, I can still see that in myself today. And that's a great quality that's remained. maybe I was hyper reactive then maybe I still am a little hyper reactive And maybe that's a little bit of an unhealed thing from my past that I can do some work.

Debbie (09:40)

Right. Well, yeah, that's totally agree. That's the good good thing about that journaling for sure.

Mary (09:45)

I want to talk about another special thing from high school and that is a very important human being to both of us and that was Mr. Michael Williams. He was the head of the English department at Montville High School. He taught both AP English and creative writing. He was instrumental in my life and I'm not overstating this but like my entire life he's you can probably deduce from the the vodka and eighth grade antidote that I had a difficult childhood and

Objectively, probably a troubled kid. And Mike Williams was one of those magical, precious teachers who can literally turn a troubled kid's life around. He supported me in number of ways. Aside from being my AP English teacher, he encouraged my writing. He wrote one of my recommendations to NYU. And eventually he became an adult friend through to his passing last October. And what's really eerie, Deb, is that you and I were on a Zoom call.

with Irene, shout out Irene. Hey Irene. And we were talking about writing and I was saying, I just saw something with Mike Williams on Facebook and then the next day he died. We're all from high school talking about writing and our beloved teacher passes away the next day. But you have an interesting story if you're comfortable sharing about something you recently found from high school

Debbie (10:56)

But anyway, there was an assignment we had, I was in several classes of his and one that stood out was his creative writing class. And I loved that class. And he gave us such creative freedom in there. He was just really such an inspiring teacher and so supportive. And the assignment we had was to write.

It was either to write an obituary or an epitaph. It was something a little bit morbid like that. But I really loved it. I wrote something in there about becoming an author with with like all these published books. And he underlined the sentence about becoming an author of published books. And he wrote.

this will happen and he underlined the will. And I just, remember as a kid thinking he has that much confidence in me then, it was amazing, really special.

Mary (11:38)

very, very special and also profound when we lead to where you are today as a published author. We're gonna talk more about the book.

Debbie (11:49)

Yeah, and I do have to add that I, in my acknowledgements at the back of this book, at the back of Key, the Dark House, I shouted out to a few of my teachers through the years who like really meant something when it came to my writing. There's been many like special teachers, but a few that like were really instrumental in helping me become the writer that I am today. And he was one of them. I know he's not here anymore.

But I believe somewhere in the realm that like, he knows I wrote that.

Mary (12:14)

And I think this is just a great moment to pause and reflect on the specialness of teachers because you were a teacher. one of the most important careers in the world and seriously powerful impact on growing minds. And you never know what even a small act of kindness, like what he wrote to you, how important that can be, how instrumental it could be. It kind of like...

ties into what I'm trying to talk about with this podcast about being the change that we want in the world and the change for ourselves. Because I think we want a life of meaning and we don't know how to do it. And sometimes it might be encouraging someone or being kind so taking a step back, we both wanted to be a writer, but then of course life happens. So for me, I was like, yeah, I'm gonna be a writer, gonna go to NYU and live in the village because that's where the writers are.

But of course, know, NYU isn't cheap and I get sucked into the corporate world you decide to take up, again, one of the most important careers in the world, teaching. Can you tell me about that point in your life?

Debbie (13:11)

I think our generation, and this is not any offense to our parents or our parents from that generation, we were kind of told like you need to get a career and a job and you have to make money. And a lot of the things that were being told to me were that you can't make money writing. You can do that, but you can't really do that as a job. You know that, right? Like you won't really make money. And in some ways that was true.

especially back in the 1980s, there wasn't a lot of resources. So, you know, I made that decision somewhere along the way to kind of put the writing aside because I didn't think that I could make anything out of that. I didn't really know how to do it. my mother was an educator. She was a principal. She got a doctorate in education. She was amazing teacher, amazing administrator. So I followed in her footsteps a little bit.

I was an English major in college, so she encouraged me to go back and get my teaching certification, which I did. And then I started out in a parochial school,

My mom was like my best mentor after that because she was an educator. So she really helped me get used to being a teacher. And then eventually I got a position in a public elementary school, But it wasn't an easy road, you know? In the back of my mind, I still would always wanted to be a writer, but you know, teaching was like.

way I could also share my love of literature and education and creativity. Back then, we did so many fun projects when I was a teacher and I loved my students. I loved being around the kids. I loved my classroom. It was like a second home, you know, and it was kind of, I always felt like it was such a happy place I hope my students felt that way too.

Mary (14:43)

back to what you were talking about, how you were, finding the kid who was sitting by themselves or being everyone's friend. I mean, what another brilliant quality to have in a teacher. So like, not only are you, very smart. You've always been really good in school and you're very creative. Then you're kind and empathetic. And I mean, it's a gift, we're talking about your-

your character's journey and all these different steps. I think that was a point in time that you were doing what you needed to do to collect the experience to become more of who you are. But also you were giving to the world your love and kindness and your teaching.

during this journey, you're really making an impact. I'm sure that your students have some wonderful, wonderful memories, just as you have memories of your teachers.

Debbie (15:29)

And I, know, it's true exactly what you said. I, as a teacher, I can't speak for all teachers, but I never felt that sense of like, what is my purpose in life? Because you always felt like what you were doing had a purpose and teaching is so rewarding and so difficult at the same time. And so I really think teachers don't get enough respect for what they do.

can't think of too many professions where you feel that sense of love. every day there was laughter in our classroom. There wasn't a single day where we weren't laughing about something. I mean, how many professions can you say that about? even if you had a bad day with your administrators or something in the school itself, you were always laughing, even in the worst times. Like I was a teacher during 9-11. Like those were difficult times. But there's always those kids had such a light about them.

it's such a gift to be able to experience that every day, you know, it's amazing.

Mary (16:16)

And the power, I the impact often, think right now a number of people who are working in corporate or office environments, can feel like nothing that I do matters. Whereas literally every word you could say to some of your students might have like serious impact, right? Like it's a high value, very high power job that is not paid at all what it deserves.

Debbie (16:40)

And I think it goes either way. There are times when you learn, even as a teacher, teachers aren't perfect, where you say something negative to a student and you see their reaction to it and how, like, so I would try to catch myself. I remember apologizing to a little girl once for something I said to her sarcastically. And my mother used to tell me, sarcasm has no place in the classroom, which is so true for younger kids because they don't really grasp the sarcasm. Because I remember her saying, her name was Tori, and she said, why don't you trust me? And I went, no, I don't trust you.

And I said it sarcastically, but she actually started to cry And I had to go over later and say to her, I'm sorry that I said that to you. Of course I trust you. I just meant that, no, we can't do whatever it was that she wanted to do at the moment. But it made me more aware of being careful of my words.

Mary (17:22)

Well, what another great antidote to something else I talk about on the show is this rupture repair process. I can imagine that many kids that you're seeing, you don't know what their situation is at home. I know some families, and I certainly came from this family where there might be a blow up or a fight or a misunderstanding.

stuff is said and people go away and then you either make up or people pout or, but it's not discussed, right? It's not saying, Hey, I didn't mean to say this. This is where I was coming from. I'm sorry. Like modeling that in real life, I'm going to teach you some stuff. Sure. But actually by means of my relationship with you is also going to be an opportunity to teach things. I'm sure you were an amazing teacher.

But if we fast forward to 2013, your life is going through some big changes. So now you're a mom of a young boy and a small dog.

you have an unexpected personal loss and this leads you to decide to make some pretty big changes. Can you talk about this period and this change?

Debbie (18:18)

Sure,

yeah. Well, I'll back up a little bit. Jake was born in 2008. And you know, when you write that plan for yourself, like, this is what I'm gonna do. This is, I'm gonna do this, this and this and it'll be fine. You know, that's how it is. So I decided to leave teaching, but I was gonna come back. And I really wanted to bring him to the school where I taught, even though we did not live in that township. I knew some schools allowed that and I thought, I'll go to my principal and my superintendent and I will ask, can I come back and I'll bring him? He can go to this school, it'll all be fine.

And the second I got back there and suggested that my principal was like, nope, we don't do that. So being very emotional after having a baby, I was kind of like, what? Like this, the plan just went like out the window. Like that was my plan. What do mean? what am going to do? Cause I didn't want him to be in daycare, not my personal choice. wanted him to be with me when I was teaching there. It's just something I wanted. I loved the school.

So I kind of had to go a different route so not going back to teaching. I'll just enjoy my time with him and we'll figure it out along the way. along the way, I just started going places with him and visiting places. And I thought, I would love to put this into some kind of blog or something to help other people who are visiting and traveling and going to these kids' places and want to know if it's any good.

So I created the Jersey Momma page and in the beginning it was not great. Like it needed work and I didn't really know what I was doing. I would write about the places we visited or like things we saw, but I didn't really know how to like put it all together really well and like market it. And around 2013, that was a difficult time because my nephew passed away from brain cancer. My dog, who was like my companion for 15 years, also passed away. And then Jake was going to kindergarten.

So he was gonna leave and it was really traumatizing, So I decided to put more work into that blog. I was like, all right, I'm gonna figure out how to do this and maybe we can monetize it and see. And that's what I did. I just started like really focusing on it and trying to put a lot of effort into it and researching it. And I found there were little communities of other like mom bloggers.

I joke sometimes that the blog was born from like grief and loneliness because I was home. I left my career. My husband was very supportive, but like you're there a lot by yourself. My parents were very supportive. They were like my friends. They would go with me to the places that I was writing about.

Mary (20:33)

often change is coming out of these difficult periods or experiences. And I like to think of it as like you're alchemizing, you're taking this thing and you're you're going to transform it. Otherwise, it just sits as this this negative thing that happened to you. And sometimes we just need to accept those things and let them go. But sometimes they can inspire us.

And the inspiration bears fruit of something that's really beautiful and wonderful. And 2013 was, and you keep me honest, cause you're the expert here, but my memory is that that was very different from today. Well, that's a freaking understatement about different 2013, but it's different in that we didn't, I don't think we yet had terms like content creator and influencer the way we do now. Right. So you were really trailblazing back then. Right. And you designed something.

which I think that's kind of what I'm doing here. It's like you designed what you want. Like you would love to have this resource of activities and how to exist with your kid in a way that was, like you said, it wasn't just parenting, but you found this niche of something that you really liked and was important to you. And then you created it.

Debbie (21:34)

Right.

Mary (21:35)

I just want everyone to know this, you've do this very successfully for 12 years. And I'm watching you as your friend on social media and I'm seeing you, you're invited to everything from toy conventions and Hershey park and beaches, Turks and Caicos. I've seen pictures of you with celebrities on various red carpets. So legitimately a big deal. And for many people, this would be enough, right? You think, I have a recognized brand. Things are running like a well-oiled machine. And I think.

you could have done what many people do is just kind of keep things as they are. Because I mean, in my experience, I feel like it's hard enough to keep pushing myself to grow, but it's often the hardest when things are like objectively fine. know, like it's easy when you're in a really bad place, like that will like catapult you to make a change. But when things are like, they're fine, it can be even harder, but you decide that you wanna keep evolving mama.

Do you remember what that prompt was or how that came to you?

Debbie (22:31)

I think I'm one of those people who always was evolving. just am a firm believer in like, you have to keep like reinventing yourself as a person because to be stagnant in the same place all the time is not healthy and kind of makes you unhappy, made me unhappy. So even in 2013, like I had that choice where I could kind of sit and stew over these losses and you know, the loss of the career too, because I felt like that was also gone or I could just keep going forward and fill a need you know,

continue on. there were so many things this blog has given to me. It's amazing the people I've met and the places I've gone, the opportunities, it's just unreal. And I see a new generation coming in as content creators, influencers. They were not there when I started so many years ago. So now there's like a lot of us in the pool and

There's a lot of pressure and different things that like different directions that I don't necessarily want to go. I'm not big on all the social media videos. I can do them, but I don't want to make that my life. don't want to be like connected to my phone 24 seven.

not putting them down. You make money like that, like they're successful, but that's not my life now. So I'm evolving to something else. So I wanted to try to expand the Jersey mama a little bit. I'm a mom still, but my son is a teenager. So not doing the little kid things anymore that we used to.

I try to evolve the blog a little bit that way that I want to be more beyond mama. So I'm still the Jersey mama but beyond mama. I'm I have entertainment section on my site. I have food section on my site travel. I want to focus more on the travel. So

You know, I think it's recognizing in yourself that you need to make that little change. And I went through that period where like, should I get rid of the blog altogether? There's not a lot of bloggers left out there. There's a lot of content creators and influencers, but it was special and it's something that I created and I think I'm going to hang on to it. It was the final decision I came to. I'm hanging on to it and it'll evolve with me, you know, and there's you and I have talked about this, that there's moms out there that are my age that have teenagers that also are evolving.

So, hey, this is something, come read my blog, we all do this together. I started a section on the blog that's more personal, it's called Beyond Momma, you can find it in the tabs on my site. And there's more like content that comes just directly from my heart rather than like reviews and travel stuff. So that's been fun too, to kind of just put some new things out there that I didn't do before.

Mary (24:56)

I'm gonna put a link in the show description. I was reading some of your Beyond Momma musings and I think you have a voice. This is just a megaphone. It's just a channel for you to talk about your experience and whether that's your experience as a writer, your experience as a mom, as a wife, whatever. You have a really good sense of taking in your experiences and writing about them in a way that people will feel

connected and less lonely and understood Maybe it's just feeling like there's someone out there that understands what they're going through. And I feel like so many people need that right now. And you're so really, you're so talented at taking sometimes really complex things. And I want to move on to Key because you've done this with this amazing book, but sometimes, and I'm at fault.

When I take something intense, I write it intense. And sometimes that's good and sometimes it's not good. And I think what you're so brilliant at is finding a way of balancing that dark and light in a way that is accessible. It's something you can take in and it's still heavy and meaningful, but it's not overwhelming and dark. And I want to mention, and I'm making a big deal about these steps, like, cause we're going through your character arc here, right? You're both the author and

and the protagonist of your life. And so we're talking about your character arc. story. Your origin story and why it's so brilliant what I refer to as this messy middle. Like we can talk about how now you're this brilliant published author and you started, you know, driving around in the Toyota with me and Montville. But in this middle, there's all these micro decisions and they add up

a recent guest here I had on the podcast, Suzanne Roske, she spoke about this in terms of the one in 60 rule, which pilots and boat captains learn, because she did a major radical change to her career. And she said that this one in 60 rule, if you're off heading by one degree, after 60 miles, you're off course by one mile. So if we apply this to change or transformation,

small decisions or even indecisions, they compound over time. So if you're not like continually evaluating and making those little corrections, you can wake up 30 years later and just be like, where the hell am I? talking about your journey, you're doing that and you're doing it even in periods of comfort, you're doing it in periods of pain and trauma.

which sometimes you just want to self soothe and shut down and hide and retract from the world. So I just really want to call out Deb that this stuff is really important and the way you've navigated it when it sounds like it's more instinctual than conscious for you is really important.

Debbie (27:31)

Yeah, I agree. Thank you for pointing it out too, because I feel like I think in order to make those leaps like that and to keep evolving, you have to be brave. I think you have to kind of shut out some of the voices that tell you what you're doing is weird or different or outside the box. You know, a lot of times when you get the drive to evolve into something else or an idea to do something, especially on the creative side, you get a lot of pushback that especially from our parents generation, not an offense to our parents, but like

That's how they were raised. That's not your typical career. That's not what you should do. You have to kind of follow what you feel is the right thing to do because it might be outside the box. It might be something weird, but give it a shot. And the other thing is that sometimes it's not a journey you take alone. Like usually you need support. My husband was very supportive.

So I do think that you need a support system too. And even if you don't have it physically, like a family or husband or friends, you can find and reach out to like online support with groups that help guide you through whatever it is that you're doing

it's comforting and safe to be the same all the time. So to make a leap and do something outside the box is challenging, you know.

Mary (29:05)

It sounds like you had, purposely cultivated an environment that would support you. And sometimes people don't have that. And maybe that's why it all comes together at a certain point in time. And that certainly has been with your story with writing because you've always been a writer. And it sounds like you've gone through a number of different iterations of, who you are and it's evolved. I just want to say, so I read.

Key of the Dark House. read it in one sitting because I had a long, long journey. And as I was saying, it's dark and it's edgy, but it's also inspiring and on the whole like not heavy thing. So right now I feel like certainly I'm experiencing the world as being overwhelming and difficult for many reasons. And so I'm very aware of what I led into my world, like the energy I led into my world and

Sometimes it's just too much. just don't want to hear anything. You know, I'm listening to podcasts all day and watching things and typing things. It's just too much. And so I find sometimes I'm retracting and I want to protect myself. But then I have this hungry mind. It's like my mind gets snacky and I want stuff. I want information and I'm allergic to boring and superficial things. So now I'm having to really be very intentional about what I watch, what I listen to. And Key of the Dark House, it hit

when it was over, I felt good. I felt satisfied and I wanted more, but not in a way like some authors or even I'll watch like a streaming show where they leave things purposely open And then you feel like you're kind of like left dangling. It was satisfying, but then also I wanted more and I texted you after like, I need these characters to show up again. And I had tears in my eyes. So honestly, Debbie, it's...

It's so brilliant. But I wanna talk about the process, because you actually wrote Key in your 20s, and it lived under your bed until your son found it, which by the way is not only cool, but it also sounds like an idea for another story. So, yeah, tell me the Genesis. Tell me the story about the story.

Debbie (31:01)

Ha!

Well, I was always a writer, like you said. I always thought that made me kind of weird. Like I would write these stories in my free time, even as a little kid, like elementary school age. I always writing stories, drawing them, but I would just put them in a box or like put them aside or something. Even though I knew I wanted to be a writer, like I didn't really share them the way you think. Like I wasn't involved in like a lot of like writing things in school, not really. So, of the Dark House was something I wrote probably in my college years, like really started to write it.

And I was all set to like start sending it to publishers without having anybody really have read it. People were like, you need to get a job, girl. You don't need to do this writing. This is OK. Put that aside and go get a job. Do your resume. Do this, whatever. So.

I did make a decision to put the book aside for a long time. I was like, that's going back under the bed. And that's where it stayed. When I was teaching, I had a really amazing colleague, Glenn Coates, shout out to Glenn, who taught next door to me, taught reading recovery. And I was somehow brave enough to share it with him because he was a writer and he had published work in magazines and books and stuff. And he read it and he was honest. It was not great. He

wasn't mean or anything, but he definitely told me this needs to be polished. Like he would give me suggestions and I tried my best to polish it. But again, then, you know, life happens. I got married, had a child. I put that book away again, along with all the other ones. There's more than just that one. So as time passed and I was starting to evolve the Jersey mama, I was talking to my son, who's a teenager, about what to do next. And he started asking me about the writing because he knew I had writing. And he asked about that book.

he read a little bit of it and he was like, this is really good. And I think you should do this. You should really try to publish it. And I was like, really? And I don't know what it was. Something about him, my teenager, my own son telling me this is good because he's the kid that would be reading at his age group anyway. And I was kind of like, you know what? Maybe he's right. Maybe I should pursue this.

Mary (32:56)

You know, it's not uncommon to meet people who say they've always wanted to be a writer or that they have a special story to share with the world. And I include myself. And the reason I'm so inspired by you is that I wrote a novel about 10 years ago and it's still on my hard drive, awaiting my attention. I have an editor, shout out to Allison, who's standing by and waiting for me to finish my edits. And like you, when I gave her the draft, like your experience

it was not as good as I remembered it. It's challenging to start a creative project, but it's even more challenging to finish it and get it out at a high level of quality. Do you have any advice or words of wisdom for other aspiring writers who are sitting with either that great idea or a near ready manuscript in their head?

Debbie (33:40)

think you have to not give up on it and not give up on yourself and take the criticism, especially if you have somebody that's telling you this needs more work. Don't say, oh, fine, forget it now. Really take that to heart and look at it again. Look at it with new eyes and try again and try again. And then once you feel like you've polished it enough, don't give up. There's so many resources online. There's so much to help you and so many amazing indie authors that have made

YouTube videos and tutorials to help with this stuff so you can do it. Like I had that feeling too. Like I can't do this. It's like very overwhelming, but you can, but you're like overwhelmed with other things in your life, then wait, the universe will bring it to you. when it's right, like I kind of joke about how many years later this is for me.

when I look back at when it was done in 1996, it wasn't ready. It wasn't ready for the world. And maybe I wasn't ready to put it out there because once these characters are out in the world that were in your head and that were part of your life for so long, it's an odd feeling. You have to be ready to have people talking about these characters, to have reviews put out there, and to just suddenly

give that story to the world when it was yours for so many years. So that's maybe the universe is having you wait for a reason because you need to be ready.

Mary (34:55)

Absolutely,

I love that. I think that's true. I think I believe that. And it is true about sharing this, the stuff with you. It's very personal, the way you describe your writing process. And I do believe this, and I'm friends with a number of wonderful authors now, is that something is coming through you. You are a vessel. 100%.

You don't know how, but all these stories are just coming out of you. Like you've tapped into this central thing in the universe, this collective unconscious or something greater than all of us. And as a writer, you're a vessel for it. And now you are a published author and Key of the Dark House is out in the universe. So congratulations on this phenomenal milestone. And with this expansion in your portfolio,

you have established Jersey Momma Media. And I said to you after I read the book that I felt like the floodgates were now open. And so is it fair to say that we can look forward to more books?

Debbie (35:47)

Yes, you're not going to be able to control them from coming out from under the bed. Because like my son had said, and I said to myself too, like, what do I have them for? If you're out there and you're a writer like this and you've been writing these stories and putting them aside, you have to ask yourself, what's the point then?

Mary (35:50)

Okay.

Debbie (36:03)

What's the point of that gift that was given to you? Because where does the story come from? It is some magical thing. And our old teacher, Mr. Williams, had talked about that with us ages ago, that it's some kind of like surreal thing that you don't know really where the story comes from.

Mary (36:16)

I took a writing class last year, had a really wonderful teacher, Susan Breen, who's also a published author. And we had to go around and introduce ourselves and why we wanted to do this class. And here I am. Okay, I had this career in corporate America, but I was a writer, but I am a writer,

People used to think of me as a writer, but then 30 years, they didn't think of me that anymore, but I think I still am that. And I don't know. And it was this very self-deprecating introduction. And she said something I thought was really, really important she said your experience over the last 30 years was research You're still a writer. That's still there. You're just doing research. I do feel that there's...

something really profound that happens when you write, but also all the experience teaching, working in corporate America, all of our journeys, our friends, our family, they are part of our inspiration in the fabric and the patchwork that is inspiration and creativity.

Debbie (37:08)

Yes, so true. I'm sitting next to a quote on my wall here that is from one of your favorite people, Mr. Rogers, Mr. Fred Rogers, and it says, if you could only sense how important you are to the lives of those you meet, how important you can be to the people you may never even dream of, there is something of yourself that you leave at every meeting with another person. And that's almost exactly what you're saying that like all the people you meet and all the things that you go through kind of bring you to the point where you are now.

You know, it is a road. So we how we started this, said it's a road that we've taken and, know, here we are.

Mary (37:41)

Beautiful.

And after 38 years starting as awkward teenagers talking about writing, quoting Smith songs and Mr. Rogers, and here we are.

what occurs to me and it ties back to what you just said about you might not have been ready, right? Is that it is a pretty vulnerable act. writing, there's a vulnerability to it that I think is different and whether it's opening yourself to criticism or...

maybe it's because you're sharing some aspect of your subconscious with the world, that maybe we need to really be ready before we do this. And it wasn't just that the book needed more editing. I'm hearing you say is that you have evolved and you are so comfortable or more comfortable as we all are evolving in our comfort with ourselves, that you're ready to now share this and share yourself with all of us through your writing.

Debbie (38:35)

you still get some opposition, there's still people that say, is this what you want to do? And you're kind of like, Yep, this is what I'm doing.

Mary (38:41)

Well, and based on what you've said today, you're going to keep evolving and growing. And that might mean the nature of your work or the types of things that you write evolve. It might mean even more projects, different types of projects. I really experience you as someone who is just so open and in touch with possibilities and opportunities that you're not going to put yourself in a box and you're just going to keep evolving. who knows?

I might be watching a movie that's written by you. And then come back on the show and promote that. Who knows what's like anything is possible because you are so open to growth and to seeing where it goes and you're curious and you take challenges and stride and you translate them into inspiration and you are an inspiration and the way you're living your life is inspiring.

Debbie (39:30)

Thank you. And I hope that comes across in my writing too, because I feel like even my writing doesn't really fit into a box. It doesn't fit into, you know, when you go out there and look, there's a lot of like witch books out there and wizards and doesn't really fit into any of those genres. It's kind of like, I feel like it's on its own. A lot of my stories are like that. They're a little outside the box. So I have to like stick to that, you know?

Mary (39:54)

And I think I watch a lot of like film critics and, you know, film analysis. And I feel like there's going to be a counter correction to where we've been with really doubling down on existing IP and big franchises. What did I see yesterday? They're rebooting something else. It's just like, it's the same story, right? Like there's no, I mean, and don't get me wrong. I love superheroes. I love fantasy. I love science fiction.

you know, Star Wars, Indiana Jones, like all of these old franchises, they're just milking to the point where, I mean, timelines are done, character consistencies are done. It's like the suspension of disbelief has gotten preposterous and absurd. And it's really just sucked the creativity and the joy out of it. And it feels like there's like some aversion to just trying something really, really creative. And like you say, out of the box.

I would cite Baby Reindeer, I don't know if you saw that. yeah, yes. But he, I mean, not that winning awards is the milestone that everyone should strive for, but it did very well commercially, it did very well in reviews and the audiences really responded to it. And you could never have put that story into an agent's hands and say, go sell this somewhere. I don't know how they got Netflix to pick it up.

but I think that's what people really want. They want human stories. That was his story. And a difficult one, a disturbing one, something that hadn't been done before, not really commercially appropriate in a lot of ways. And so I feel like everyone, follow what's inside you. have enough of the rest.

when it comes to expressing what's inside of you, before you compare that to some checklist or if it's not out there already, then maybe this isn't marketable. Well, if it's not out there already, maybe someone's dying to read it.

Debbie (41:40)

I'm so glad you brought that up because that is something I feel like I have always lived my life that way. And I'm always the person that's like, well, do we have to do it that way?

And that's where I decided to go the different route I started Jersey Momma Media, which is my own publishing house. So don't be discouraged

it's okay to think there's another way to do it.

Mary (41:57)

I feel like we're coming full circle because I feel like this goes back to being awkward teenagers in junior high school where you're trying to fit in and who's wearing what and everyone's trying to be the same. And here we are. And like, when does that stop? Like, when do we grow up and just follow our inner voice and become who we're supposed to be? And it's an act of self love. It's an act of self acceptance and of course, courage and bravery because it feels safe to do what everyone else is doing.

And I think this is just another testament to why doing that inner work and really becoming comfortable with yourself and advocating for yourself is so important and how that work can then translate into a successful career and waking up every morning and loving what you're doing. And there are so many people out there right now who are like every day, they're like, I have to do this thing. I, this job I hate and I'm really unhappy. And, you know, it might not be writing for that person. might be something completely different.

but they might also feel like, no one's doing that and I don't know if there's a market for it.

Debbie (42:59)

authentic, think too, is a huge part of it. You know, it's not like you're saying, I'm going to write a bestseller. I want to go out there. I'm going to write a book that's going to be super. You can do that. Sure. But if you want to follow some dream or something that's inside of you, think stick to the authenticity, stick to the authentic part of it. Like you want to get this out in the world because it's a part of you that you want to share

I want to make lots of money. You could do that too, but I think you'll always feel that unhappiness otherwise. I think if you're really sticking to the authentic reasons, that's going to bring you the success and the joy that you're really looking for.

Mary (43:31)

I want to underline that because we live in a society where we count likes, count subscribers, we count revenue, we have very specific definitions and metrics for success. And yet most people I talk to are miserable, unhappy, they want out. there's a guy who lives in the town I live in who was a doctor and

our healthcare providers are, really in a tough place. They're, really struggling. And he decided he just didn't want to do it anymore. And he opened up a bike shop, he loved to cycle and he felt like it was a healthy hobby. And he thought, this is what I want to be around. And maybe I'm not making people healthy as a practitioner of medicine, but I'm going to do something that I really love that.

is peripherally related to that. And so he found that. Now, does that come with compensation, trade-off? Sure, that's going to be different. But I think more people are recognizing that happiness and success are more important than the subscribers and likes. Right. And that we shouldn't be doing things for those reasons alone. Obviously, we have to pay the bills and take care of things. But we've been so focused on the wrong aspects of success. I recently had Rob Kenny on the show.

who started a channel because for the same reason he wanted to do something that was for him, And it blew up and it became quantifiably, quote unquote, successful. And that's great. I think that's the cherry on top though. Don't do it for that. And life is too short and precious to be miserable.

So I want to close today with a segment I call the protagonist questionnaire. as I said, each of us is both the writer and protagonist of our own lives. This is inspired by French journalist Bernard Pivot and the late great James Lipton of the actor studio. So here we go. Deb, what person or people first showed you your own power?

Debbie (45:26)

It's gonna sound corny, but you know, it's my parents, like my mom and dad, think they showed that I could be creative My mom and dad both are creative people. So I think they really brought that out of me. And my sister too, she was also very creative and she was like the mastermind behind a lot of ideas and things that we had growing up.

Mary (45:43)

What film do you find most inspiring?

Debbie (45:46)

I have so many inspiring films. Like I love all the Star Wars saga, the whole thing. I'm into all that and all Jim Henson stuff. But I really, there are like two movies that I really love and they're not even the best movies in the world, but like Vanilla Sky. And Meet Joe Black.

very inspiring.

Mary (45:59)

So this is like a sidebar. What is your favorite Star Wars?

Debbie (46:02)

I have to say Empire Strikes Back

Mary (46:04)

Whenever I ask this question, everyone says Empire Strikes

Debbie (46:06)

I love them. really like all of them, but especially the older ones, you know, the beginning ones that were the end.

Mary (46:13)

I like New Hope, which is one or four, depending on how you're counting, but I also like Revenge of the Sith. And I know a lot of people really hate that because of the actor.

And then just last thing on that because you've opened up this box. I'm going have have you back to talk about Star Wars. So I am really very frustrated with the last 10 years in the franchise. Really?

Debbie (46:34)

In the very last one, I really loved how they I could talk for hours about

Mary (46:36)

All right, we're gonna have to have you back and have a... Okay,

let's do that. Let's do a Star Wars thing because maybe I need to rewatch them in order.

I just talk about TV movies all the time. So somehow it comes up in all of my conversations. And somehow recently I have come across four separate adults who have never seen Harry Potter. And when I tell you I lost my shit,

I said, you just have to come up, we have to make this happen this weekend. Because how many people can you watch Harry Potter with for the first time? Like I wanna see it through these Harry Potter virgins. eyes.

Debbie (47:07)

Yeah, I know you want to sit there and go. Do you like this part?

Mary (47:10)

Yeah, I want to pause it and be like, you get what's going on with Snape right now? Like, come on.

Debbie (47:15)

Or remember this because this is going be important for

Mary (47:17)

Oh,

yeah, no, I have to. Yeah, there's no spoilers. I have no leading the witness. have to. It's going to be everything.

Debbie (47:24)

We can do a whole nother like movie podcast

Mary (47:26)

I'm going to book that. We're going to put that on the table. We have some action items after we record this. All right. What song do you play to psych yourself up? And please tell me it's not Marcy and Smith.

Debbie (47:37)

No, that would be like when you're depressed. No, I think it depends on what I'm doing. there's a song by the B-52s called Debbie that is like who else has a song called Debbie? Not many people. So that is one that like I would actually play to like psych myself up

Mary (47:53)

Okay. What is your favorite?

character from literature or film.

Debbie (47:57)

I have like two there. I have a lot, of course. I never pick one favorite, but Daenerys Targaryen, mother of dragons.

she was such an amazing character, like, and to watch her character arc, my gosh, she's amazing. And then on the opposite, like end, I love Star-Lord from Guardians of the Galaxy. Something about his character, the character, like.

I love a flawed character and even Daenerys Targaryen was flawed in some ways. Like they're trying so hard to do all the right things and they do it wrong or they do something wrong. And like Star-Lord I think was really responsible for whole Thanos thing.

Mary (48:29)

okay. What is your favorite comfort food?

Debbie (48:31)

I go sweet actually. Donuts like sweet things like brownies, cupcakes, that kind of thing.

Mary (48:36)

What do you do to unwind self soothe or remind yourself not to take life too seriously?

Debbie (48:41)

Well, I truly believe there's nothing a good walk can't fix. So like purposeless walking,

of my dogs like through the years my first dog and my dog spot now I walk like two miles a day every day like every day of my life my biggest comfort thing is I love watching the Barker era prices, right?

on Amazon Prime. And I put it on every night and I play my Nintendo Switch and I feel like I'm like back in the 80s. And it's like, there's no news that's going to make you feel bad. There's nothing to see Bob Barker in his youth to see all the people dressed like from the 80s. I swear, if you're like a Gen Xer and you're having a bad day, like put that on and you will be transported back into some other alternate universe.

Mary (49:26)

what is your spirit animal?

Debbie (49:28)

Heron, which is why I made the Heron, is my logo for Jersey Momma Media

Mary (49:32)

Okay. What is your favorite quote? I know you have a lot of them.

Debbie (49:34)

I do. I used to have a wall of quotes growing up in my room, stuck all over the wall, which is probably why I put some on that book that you saved for all these years. But one of my favorites is from Carrie Fisher, the late great Carrie Fisher. And it was such a simple quote. was like, be afraid, but do it anyway.

And this other one You must read and write as if your life depended on it. That was from a poet named Adrienne Rich. And one of my college professors told us you can't forget how important it is to read and write and how years ago women didn't have that luxury of reading and writing.

So I always love that quote for that reason.

Mary (50:08)

That's beautiful. Thank you. Okay. And finally, how do you wish to be remembered?

Debbie (50:12)

I hope people remember me as a kind person that person that got along with everybody and that, people kind of were inspired by. I hope I inspire other people just to be a good person.

Mary (50:23)

Well, I love you Deb. And thank you so much for living with courage and following your dreams and for being a human who doesn't ignore your inner calling and who continues to explore new ways of expressing your gifts with the world. You are living with integrity and I respect, admire and love you and I am inspired by you. Thank you for talking with me today.

Debbie (50:24)

I love you too, Mary.

And

can I say thank you to you as well and thank you for bringing light to this and giving people the chance to hear other people's stories about how to live outside the box and to chase your dreams when it doesn't always seem like the most natural thing to do it. So it's very bold of you to put this out there.